I've lately stumbled over an article that has actually to do with 4th Edition. While I do not like 4th at all personally, the article or I should say the comment on the article by Brian R. James reflected back on things that happened in 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition and it sparked my interest. Thought it would be a good start for the new section here

Aurilandür and Auril are one and the same. Long before humans started venerating the Frostmaiden, she was known as the Frost Sprite Queen, a (mostly) benevolent winter fey with a seat on the Court of Stars. She was latter corrupted by a malign artifact, warred with her sister the Summer Queen, and was banished from the Feywild. Thereafter her name was stricken and she was referred to only as the Queen of Air and Darkness. At this time she garnered a human following and joined Talos-who-was-Gruumsh as one of the Gods of Fury. With the aid of Silvanus, the dark artifact’s hold over Auril was shattered during the Stormstar Requiem, and the Aurilandür of old has once again begun to peak through Auril’s icy, malevolent veneer.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19781290/Sarifal_Article:_Lurue,_Nobanion,_38;_Eldath_are_back!?pg=4

As the situation currently is in 3.5 even at the end of 3.5 Auril is still Auril, cold hearted and evil. It's always doubtful however what mortals think of their gods, especially with the manyfold aspects of such deities and other deities who try to gain some influence in some way. We see this with the Auril followers of the "Sisters of Istishia" they actually do believe in and officially follow Auril, but are granted their spells as it seems by Istishia and also for the followership count as followers of Istishia even though they don't know that themselves.

A neutral good follower of Auril is surely not the standard and likely is not even accepted, but faith is actually what people make of it. As it is a habit of people who have a lot of faith they go to insane amounts of trouble for what they believe in. Especially those who are seen as outcasts and far off from major temples often make up their own and very different ideology of things.

What I mostly try to find is actually not a way to change Auril, but a way to let my character Melaire find things about Auril or that have to do with winter and cold and could be associated with her, that are more neutral or good aligned.

With our reader's knowledge it seems to be rather obvious .. Auril is Auril, but what in the Realms that would be is many many different names for one and the same goddess, very likely very different traditions for each of the followers of this goddess in different regions. Now if someone looks for neutral or good aspects of a winter deity in order to learn more, he might actually find something that might fit that view .. but is actually a completely different deity. Like looking for clues about frost based spells of (what the char believes) a rather neutral or benevolent ice goddess and really finding something .. that looks close enough to be of Aurils making yet it is someone else really.

This leads down to several questions for me:

.) The first and foremost is if Auril has some "accepted" cults followers or temples that are officially more going a true neutral way. I did not find any myself, they all seem to be rather evil touched, but if there are any let me know. While Melaire is somewhere between neutral good and neutral, true neutral would very likely be "okay enough" for her to stick to it, as she is not really a divine caster herself its not very problematic.

.) The next one is what deities might fit the winter and cold portfolio. Some obvious ones are Silvanus, Akadi and Istishia, Silvanus as being the strongest nature deity overall and also has these aspects in a way, even though not as prominent. Talos would come to mind as well, we should not forget that the God of Storms actively subsumes Aurils powers more and more, but I leave Talos out a bit as he is an evil deity himself, which wouldn't really help me further here.
Funny thing is I actually don't know a lot about any Elven deities of winter or cold. She is an elf, so this might make for a very interesting story idea as well. The only one that might be close is Aerdrie Faenya as I also know that a hand full of Avariel worships Auril. Neither Rillifane nor Deep Sashelas seem really fitting, but I might be wrong here. There have been countless more Elven deities mentioned in some Dragon Magazine, but I neither have these volumes nor am I sure how these would be handled.
I don't want to move to giant deities, while many of them have the cold portfolio it is (in my personal opinion) a little bit far fetched and even though I think it might be possible, I don't like giants a lot as a player. Ulutiu would be cool and as he gets drained by Auril he has a very good connection to her as well, but it would just be strange why non-giant followers should choose him as deity if there are likely more fitting ones even if they don't necessarily have only to do with cold.

right on the point of ood auril followers her orders to her followes and dogma kind of rule that out

"Cover all the lands with ice. Quench fire wherever it is found. Let in the winds and the cold; cut down windbreaks and chop holes in walls and roofs that my breath may come in. Work in darkness to hide the cursed sun so that the chill I bring may slay. Take the life of an arctic creature only in great need, but slay others at will. Make all Faerun fear me"

yhea she is a twisted evil god who cares nothing for life only frezzing the essance in there vains .... so yhea not a nice woman by all acounts as such there are no good cults of auril and infact if there were she would most likley kill them all herself out of anger and spite.

on doing some scoring of books i have found only two deitys that can claim cold and/ or winter as there own they are auril and ULUTIU who is infact nutral and shows the goddness of the cold and winter and helps the people in the frozen north live his clergy and folwers are in all races though he is asleep his dreams go to his clergy giving them guidence and wisdom and infact at the perioud we are in his clargy lead villages and towns to ensure there servival also at this time auril is draning is power away. so yes Ulutiu is widley worshiped in the north not just by giants

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ulutiu

Well you speak of that as if it would be rather plain obvious, but with gods it never is. Sure the mentioned lines are common for Auril, but it is handed down by her Church and Auril's church is not very formally organized but in a few places.

It's not like theres some official Auril's webpage that Auril maintains to let all know of her ideas and she doesn't contact every freaking crazy good hearted elf that has an interest in cold and winter either. The rare few who commune with Auril on a regular basis are not around a lot at all.

If you take a part of that dogma and replace the other lines with something else you can easily make something neutral out of it, but yeah overall I don't think there are many good followers of Auril either, thats why I'm basing it mostly on misinterpretation.

Now mix the fact, that Auril just might not care enough as long as someone brings cold and winter into some villagers minds so they don't forget about her, with such a misinterpretation and you have a typical follower that walks a rather thin line.

Even if she would care she might not be able to change things really. She can lure someone into a snowstorm and if shes really upset she can send out her followers or creatures, but latter is not worth it for the bit of trouble and the former needs a good reason. Even Auril has a hard time killing someone who lived for all their life in a cold region and knows how to find shelter. After all she is a goddess and not allowed to directly influence things on the material plane a lot. It gets even harder and more complicated if that mortal actually without knowing it is a follower of some other deity.

Oh and on another note, Ulutiu wouldn't work because she's an arcane caster so that sort of rules that one out either way. Interesting to know that he has a human followership as well. Nice bit of info for other chars maybe, thanks.

EDIT: Oh I found an interesting Elven deity from the Dragon Magazine!

Rellavar Danuvien, a lesser power, "The Frost Sprite King" and a lesser god of snow elves.

Rellavar Danuvien - as taken from the Dragon Magazine
The Frost Fey King, Warder Against Elements
Demigod
Symbol: A silver spear with a white circle to either side of the shaft
Home Plane: Plane of Faerie
Alignment: Neutral Good
Portfolio: Protection from elements, cold magic, Fey Mysteries
Worshippers: Snow elves, elven wizards (mostly evokers and abjurers), cold fey creatures
Cleric Alignments: NG, CG, N
Domains: Magic, Protection, Water
Favored Weapon: Short spear

Rellavar Danuvien appears as a weathered snow elf clad in fine leathers with a cloak of white dragon hide. His hair is pure silver, and his skin a deep midnight blue. His eyes appear iridescent as if they are sparkling diamonds. Rellavar guards the elven race against the elements of nature. The elves most in need of this protection are the snow elves and therefore are the majority of his worshippers. Other elves revere him for his mastery of cold magic as well as his knowledge of the Fey Mysteries.
Rellavar is on good terms with the rest of the Seldarine, in particular Erevan Ilesere due to his close association with fey folk.

Dogma
Rellavar concerns himself with protecting elves and their allies against natural elements. Over the millennia this protection has expanded to protection from elementals or creatures with an element sub-type such as dragons, giants, or outsiders. Elemental magic, particularly cold, holds great power and should be researched intently. Fey are the natural allies of all elvenkind, and should be sought out for their good company and wisdom.

Clergy and Temples
Rellavar has many clerics and paladins, as well as many druids and rangers. Many of Rellavar’s clerics multi-class as elemental savants. Rellavar’s clergy wears fine whitened leathers or white dragon hide. They live among and teach their fellow snow elves how to survive the harsh elements of the Crystalmist Mountains. They teach cold magics, and keep company with fey creatures.
There are a few secret temples to Rellavar. His clerics erect them at natural portals to the Inner Planes, such as volcanoes, hot geysers, or glaciers. They are said to be able to draw power from these elemental portals. Shrines to Rellavar exist in most snow elf communities.

------------------------------------------------------------

Now thats a deity we don't have in NWN2 at the moment and maybe never will, but it is interesting nonetheless. She's no snow elf, but other than that its an interesting idea.

The fact that she is, however, a star elf makes a huge difference. Star elves have been gone from the Prime Material Plane for nearly 2000 years, give or take a few minor interactions between the planes.

I see no problem whatsoever for an elven deity to have 'changed' somewhat for the elves in Sildëyuir, as they have to deal with their own lives, and not worry about what others think.

The problem herein is that Melaire was not raised completely by the star elves, and therefore wouldn't know very much about Rellavar, or any of Tel'Seldarine, really. But if you can find a way to work Rellavar into the storyline we discussed, I am quite happy to accept him into our lore. Dragon magizine may not be "canon" but a great deal of information is used from there anyway.

Rellavar could just be Auril in another form, or another name, and no one even knows it. He is the Frost Fey King, and Aurilandür was known as the Frost Sprite Queen. Very similar, in my book. It's not like other deities don't have alternate names in other realms around Faerûn, so why not Auril?

[DM Kyree Stamp Of Approval]

Actually I never thought about Melaire already knowing about that deity, I just found it and it looked interesting. I'm still sort of brainstorming what I do at the moment and try to find several options of where to go with her.

I just know that I don't want her to become evil (if she turns neutral that would be alright, but I just can't play evil chars .. im too emotional for that as a player)

That leaves a problem with the normal Auril. So far I like my background story, but a character should not only have some roots, but also some sort of goal, an incentive to even travel around and an incentive to come to the dales.

The original character idea was in pen and paper and the further parts of this bio should describe her goals a lot and what she wants to do now, in her sort of "exile" from the great glacier. I had to adapt a lot of the former concept to make it fit into NWN2 and this PW and now think about where her way could lead her.

Quote:

The problem herein is that Melaire was not raised completely by the star elves, and therefore wouldn't know very much about Rellavar

Completely true, actually I'd go as far and say she doesn't know a lot about the Seldarine at all as that is usually something elves teach "children" more in depth at a higher age, like at ~50
She surely doesn't know anything at all about Rellavar, even though her time in the great glacier might have given her a hint of that.
It was just a bit of info, not saying that I want him somehow incorporated into her story in any way, but the more options there are the better I guess.

I think the biggest question that I will think about right now is if ..

1) she sticks to Auril in her own illusional way (leads to interesting RP with other followers of Auril, maybe her wrath and such things)
2) she believes she still follows Auril but another deity takes over (leads to interesting RP with other followers of Auril, maybe her wrath and such things )
3) Auril actually has another form and name in some way for her good followers and keeps them seperated because she craves more power and one can hardly exist with the other close by (or some other idea why she has some alter ego)
4) She finds another deity she likes and finally accepts that Auril is not what she thinks she is and switches faith (could be rather interesting as well, but would likely take some influence from outside)

1 2 and 4 are probably rather easy to work on, without changing anything, while 3 does actually add to the world itself and not just affects the char.

I go back to think about it now, if any other ideas come up let me know

Regarding the Deity from Dragon Magazine, he would be more aimed at the standard D&D world, rather than Forgotten Realms, so I'd put that aside.

As for Auril's dogma, it seems VERY hard to misinterpret that in a wat that makes it neutral. Certainly not good. Especially with the recent Time of Troubles, when the Gods walked the face of Faerun. It would be very easy then, for Auril to deal with cults like that.
Since you are not a Divine Caster, you are not so much restricted by alignment, but you also have less divine imperative to act fully on the dogma. Though that runs the risk of you being judged False when you enter Kelemvor's realm.

Regarding the options, 1) Auril had plenty of time to travel the North, correcting cults that offended her. 2)Possibly, but odd. It would need to be obvious that she was getting her power from elsewhere. 3)She doesn't do this, especially not a polar opposite. 4) Could work. There are plenty of external fasctors that could apply appropriate influence.

As for the idea that Auril had plenty of time to travel, during the time of troubles I actually doubt that, especially not wasting time because of those that did never really directly offend her. If someone offended her at all, then it was likely Melaire, not the temple itself, as they were neutral, which wouldn't really be bothersome enough for Auril especially in a time when Gods themselves tried to not get killed. For all that we know Auril did not even make an appeareance in that time.

2 Actually happens all the time, its not as if clerics or other followers know where they get the spells from for sure, even more so arcane casters don't get them from their deities at all making it even easier for Mel.

You are right about being judged as false here yes. That is definitely a risk, but ignorance is not always bliss in FR Depends on how the situation really is. If she really believes in it honestly then its more likely that some other god will pick her up that gets closer to her imagination, a name alone will not prevent that.

As for 3 we have several interesting examples where that actually happens and a god has polar opposites, Talos, Auppenser and one Mulhorandi god of pragmatism that name I can't remember come to mind, though in Auppenser's case he had no real alias and just his church was split rather drastically.
Overall though, while I think it is surely possible, it would be my least favourite anyways. It would be strange if she's corrupted and then silently has an open good aspect of herself .. would just be .. weird.

Regarding the god .. the elven pantheon in Greyhawk and FR is nearly the same .. but what would you suggest? I mean we even have a D&D Frostburn prestige class in the game as Frost Mage .. so who would they pray to? To be honest, neither Silvanus nor Istishia really have that cold domain feeling and as we all know there have been a lot of gods that were not mentioned, especially regarding the elven pantheon.


Oh and as for the dogma stuff, I think you misunderstand what I'm up to here. the start of it all should be a little different .. to give a scenario for such a misunderstanding (unrelated to her story)

Not Like:

"Cover all the lands with ice. Quench fire wherever it is found. Let in the winds and the cold; cut down windbreaks and chop holes in walls and roofs that my breath may come in. Work in darkness to hide the cursed sun so that the chill I bring may slay. Take the life of an arctic creature only in great need, but slay others at will. Make all Faerun fear me"

--Alright, that sounds good, lets be friendly too from time to time.

It starts more like an Auril cleric coming through some region that rarely sees Aurilians at all and telling the farmers there to either revere and offer a gift to Auril or they will have a very cold winter. The cleric left again and the farmer tells his family next year ... "Oh and then there was this Aurilian who told us to offer Auril something to appease her and we did as she said and it was a mild winter as Auril blessed us with her good will" ... the dumb farmers son thinks, thats a cool story I go and be a cleric of Auril as well takes a walking stick says goodbye and walks off in some direction never having seen an Aurilian himself, maybe picking up some other things about winter, that are not even from Auril herself and passing that "knowledge" on to others.

It might take decades if not centuries in a region like the great glacier to even find such a small group of people, let alone tell them of how its done "the right way"

---

Overall though Mel's mentor was a normal neutral Aurilian, which is far from strange and completely acceptable for Auril. She definitely did know about the correct rules and ways of Auril, but might not have showed Melaire all of it, especially as Melaire never showed much interest in becoming a cleric herself. About the same as some parent who maybe is an assassin but doesn't want his children to know. For her mentor, Mel was a sort of child and in her later years with Melaire together she herself strayed from the neutral path a little. Would Auril have been angry sooner or later? Yes likely, but before that point really came she was killed (maybe even because of Auril triggering events?), leaving Melaire with making up stories about the things her mentor never told her adding to the already neutral idea and picture of auril some sort of good stuff.

ALL Deities made an appearance in the Time of Troubles, visiting certain settlements or places important to them or their church. And a lot of them cleaned house of those they felt did not serve them as they should. Gods handled it in different ways. Goodly Gods might educate. Auril would have frozen those who offended her into ice statues.

As for time, 4 and a half months, to the Avatar of a Fury God. And where she doesn't get to, will be reached by word of mouth.

As for power, yeah its largely irrelevant to an Arcane Spellcaster. But as for worshipping a God, but getting power from another, that only really benefits the God giving the power usually if they ARE the same God. Such as with Ibrandul. People worship him, but get their power from Shar, because Shar killed him for his portfolio and pretends he still exists.

As I said, it seems unlike Auril to have a Polar opposite aspect of herself to be nice and friendly. She's the Fury of Winter.

As for the Deity from the Dragon, adding stuff like that is always awkward. Especially since it is not designed for FR. And using the PrCs we have as an example, well Kaedrins is generic D&D. Champion of the Silver Flame, for example. An Eberron specific PrC. One you won't ever see in a Forgotten Realms sourcebook. We have it because its a part of Kaedrins, and we can't really disable it now. And I'm sure there are several more like that. And even some that are FR specific and thus technically not for use on non-FR PWs.

Regarding the Dogma, and your example of the farmer's son. He goes off wanting to be an Aurilite Cleric. So he takes Auril's test. Either he lives through the cold harsh winter night without protection, understands her will and spreads the winter chill, or he dies.

All deities made an appeareance and came to the material plane yes, but Auril's doings are unclear, meaning she made no big rumblings about what she did or did not do, it's not as if the gods did start to kill freely just because they were on the material plane, they had lots of things to do and cleaning the house was mostly done in the gods immediate area around them or for important situations or locations.

I don't know why the deity seems awkward to you, as it perfectly fits the setting and is designed as much for FR as for greyhawk in my opinion, but so be it. Can't really say anything to likes or dislikes, I do just have my own likes and dislikes as well.

As for the farmers son, how should he even learn of such a ritual if no one ever told him? Thats exactly the point, he never met an Aurilian and if he did, after years or maybe decades of his own way, he likely wouldn't believe it either way. Dogmas get lost over the years, some might not even be common knowledge in the first place and just few can actually take the time and write books, especially when they travel around.
How else should some followers of Auril actually get off so much to Istishia, with officially still believing they work in Auril's name?

As for the ritual, all clerics go through it, whether it be set upon them by another Cleric, or by Auril herself. As for Dogma, Clerics commune with their deities regularly in prayer. Dogma might not be known in detail, but if he didn't please Auril, then he wouldn't get any power.

Well they get their power from whatever other deity stands in for Auril in that way. Therefore they wouldn't have to pass any of Aurils trials, they would have to pass whatever the other deity would expect them to pass. A deity doesn't care if it is called Auril, Mystra or Cursemename as long as they believe in what the deity stands for.

Commune is an interesting way yes, the actual spell .. a god or goddess could still cheat in a way and let them not know that the name or belief about the name they have is actually for someone else and most actually would, but might choose for not telling them for the most different reasons.

Now think about it if it takes 50 or 60 years, so more or less a whole generation before a little cult actually has its first cleric who can more than do light spells. The cult was started by a person who had no magic ability at all (our farmboy), as he never learned anything about it, even clerics need to learn how to make the gestures and incant a prayer after all. This farm boy had some doubtful success of convincing some other townspeople and whoever it may be to join the cult. Similar to one of our priests in real life who also have some success in convincing people of something even though they have no magical spells. After that he is an old man now having likely built their own idea their own dogma and their own traditions of how to get a new cleric into the "church" and all of these things.
Now if for all the time these people acted in a way that would benefit another deity (for example silvanus) it would be a horrible shock for them if they have their first real cleric who uses a commune spell and they are told that hey .. its not Auril .. its Silvanus!
It depends on the situation, on the gods involved and all of that, but sometimes there might be a decision not to tell them and leave them in order to continue to get their faith .. after all for Silvanus they do the right thing.
That Auril might be pissed off and at some point send someone to take their cult apart is a different story, but they would get spells and maybe even protection from Silvanus if they are worth it.

Talos did that under the name of Malik trying to get the portfolio of wild magic until the old Mystra was rather pissed off at him. Istishia seems to have done that with Auril. Bane and Cyric have that little "issue" all the time. Shar and Mask have the same sort of "problem"

Either way, I will likely go for the easy way here and let her turn away from Auril at some point and take on another deity. Which one I still have to think about, but it will likely happen ingame and I will play it out somehow and not just dump it into my background story. Istishia and Silvanus would both be options but I will also consider some completely different gods if I meet someone ingame who can convince her in some way or the other.

Title Dragon #236: Faith & Hope
Editor Dave Gross
Edition Info TSR (Dec., 1996)
System AD&D 2

Quote:

Dragon magazine expanded the pantheon to include (though this expansion is not considered canon): ■Araleth Letheranil, a demipower. ■Alathrien Druanna, a demipower. ■Darahl Firecloak, a demipower. ■Kirith Sotheril, a lesser power. ■Melira Taralen, a lesser power. ■Naralis Analor, a lesser power. ■Rellavar Danuvien, a lesser power, "The Frost Sprite King" and a lesser god of snow elves. ■Sarula Iliene, a lesser power and patron deity of nixies. ■Tethrin Veraldé, a lesser power. ■Tarsellis Meunniduin, patron deity of the snow elves of Greyhawk & the snow elves of the High Ice region of the Anauroch in Faerun. Also called the "Lord of Mountains".

It is true that the deities mentioned, including Rellavar Danuvien, are not canon lore, but as I have stated, I have no problems in believing he can easily fit into the world we are using. It is a very minor thing, in the grand scheme of things, as it seems Melaire will not be turning to the divine classes.

For the purposes of her background, I have already given my approval of this, and don't really see why there should be any argument on the issue. It's too small to bother fighting about when you look at it compared to everything else.

As to whether or not Auril has alternate names and/or persona is irrelevant. We are all here to have fun, and enjoy the setting around us, not to discuss whether or not Wizards of the Coast made a mistake at some point in the past in not making this canon lore. It simply doesn't matter.

I'm glad people are willing to discuss things and get their views out there. That's what we want for our community. We just all need to agree that there won't always be a general consensus on every point brought up here.

It's nice of you to give your approval Kyree, but I think this is exactly why I have been posting this topic in the first place.

I like discussions a lot and it might seem that I am very fiercely protecting my point of view, what I normally really am doing.
However my personal style of discussing such topics though in the end its exactly what I want .. opinions and ideas of other people.

In this special case it might have mostly to do with my char and my chars background, but in a way I have to agree with Fiendish Puppy, if I get something approved I would like to fully live that out. Sure you might not know my playstyle very well and might not know me very well but I do know myself to some degree and I will likely start something to influence others.

No matter what and how I feel about my own char thats where others come in. As you said it's about fun and if this idea does not seem good to others and maybe spoils their fun, then there really is no need to go through with that. After all thats why I have such a multitude of options out there, .. I do like all of them in a way.

I am sorry Fiendish if I seemed unfriendly in any way, sometimes I can be both stubborn and have a hard time to get my point through without sparking someones temper, so while I might disagree on some things thats completely removed from any bad feelings. I'm actually rather happy about your opinions even if they are different from my own.

In the end its about having fun and about having fun together. If fiendish is unhappy with these deities then there is no necessity to include them. One idea among several ones. I'd rather prefer having a cool story with a lot of people happy than a cool story with just a few people happy

With regards to fiercely protecting points of view, we are in the same boat. Personally, I feel that we have plenty of Gods that are Canon without needing to add more. And whilst we may not need to make any mechanical changes persay if the Arcane Caster takes one of those Gods, what happens when she mentions her deity to someone and they become a Cleric of said deity? Add to that the fact that DMs often look at the character sheet rather than ask questions about what deity you worship. Inaccurate character sheets can lead to confusuion and complication.

Also I feel using the example of Malik and Talos is unsuited to the point you were trying to make. Name, in some ways is a big deal to Gods. You worship and pray to a God, they get power. Why would Silvanus give power to someone giving power to Auril? The difference between this and your example about Malik and Talos is that at the end of the day, Malik and Talos are the same entity, prayers go to him, no matter which one you pray to. You follow?

Basically, the cult you mentioned, if they pray to Auril, she gets the praise whether they follow her dogma or not. Silvanus would not get a look in as no power is given. If, when they get a real Cleric, and he turns out to be a cleric of Silvanus rather than Auril, that's a personal matter, rather than a Cult matter, and the Cult will react appropriately to whatever bastardised dogma they have concocted.

As for tempers flaring, and disagreements happening, I get the same way sometimes. No bad feeling or insult is ever intended. Differing opinions and suggestions are good. If it makes sense to me and is practical, then I'll bear it under close consideration, and may well put it into effect. If it doesn't make sense, isn't feasible, or I can't fit it in, etc, I'll tell you about it.

As for happy. I can't please everyone so I won't even try to. I will try to make it as interesting and fun as I can.